Pill millipedes in captivity:

[Matt K]

Sadly, there are really cool species of bugs out there that flatly do not thrive (or even live) in captivity and in my opinion should absolutely not be collected. A fine example of this is any variety of pill-millipedes. Many are very colorful and beautiful; fantasic in form, and yet nobody knows how to keep them alive in captivity. These types of animals should have more documented field observations prior to collecting for the bug hobby which (if not dooming the species to extinction) can have a significant impact on niche ecosystems where they are found.

While I believe captive culture can be a really good thing for some species, there are others that have been tried again and again and again with a 100% failure rate- does this say something?

What are your thoughts ???

[Onagro]

Sadly, there are really cool species of bugs out there that flatly do not thrive (or even live) in captivity and in my opinion should absolutely not be collected. A fine example of this is any variety of pill-millipedes. Many are very colorful and beautiful; fantasic in form, and yet nobody knows how to keep them alive in captivity. These types of animals should have more documented field observations prior to collecting for the bug hobby which (if not dooming the species to extinction) can have a significant impact on niche ecosystems where they are found.

While I believe captive culture can be a really good thing for some species, there are others that have been tried again and again and again with a 100% failure rate- does this say something?

What are your thoughts ???

Coming for the poison dart frog hobby, I can totally agree with you. There are some animals that just don't need to be in captivity. As a kid, I remember a petshop I hung out at that had pill millipedes and Dendrobates leemanhi ordered every week. Both species always died rapidly, forcing the petshop to give refunds or replacments for them all. Eventually, they simply stopped carrying both species because the store owner did not feel right about that many animals dying. You don't hear about the millipedes all that often, but the frog mentioned is in fact critically endangered because of the pet trade. All animals need to be throughly researched before being sold as a pet.

[CodeWilster]

I agree 100% with everything said. I often get ticked at my boss when he orders 50 chameleons and we sell 3; the rest dying rapidly. People need to realize they are living animals, they come from a very specific environment that they are adapted to, and within that environment they fill a niche that enables the rest of the ecosystem to flourish and carry out its natural cycles of life and growth. We are pulling bricks out of a wall, and lets hope they aren't the ones at the bottom! In order for humanity to understand ourselves we must understand the importance of the environment around us and all of the animals we share it with. The cure for cancer could be right under our noses, and we may never find it due to the fact we put in that shopping mall or whatnot. I am by no means a "tree hugger" but it is common sense to conserve whatever we can of the natural world. If only we weren't such as wasteful and greedy society!

I also agree that captive cultures are important. One example is with trap door spiders. There was a species here in California (I believe it was an Aptostichus sp) that was restricted to one very small coastal area. A single captive specimen was sent to Mr. Jason Bond to be identified and it was in fact a new species. After working with the captive animal for some time, Mr Bond went to study it in the wild to find that a golf course had just been built on its very tight distribution. The species is considered to be extinct in the wild (I'm sure in captivity also). I am working with a species from FL that is likely to suffer the same fate, unfortunately. Again, spider venom varies between species like fingerprints on a human, and some venom has proven to have positive medical benefits (whether it helps directly or promotes experiments). You can do the math from there...

Anyway now that that rant is over I think they have a theory with those pill millipedes and why they do not make it, something like the symbiotic bacteria that break down detritus/cellulose are killed when they are shipped to other countries. If their was some way to keep that bacteria alive they supposedly would make it. I don't remember where I read that but I do remember it vaguely being somewhere. The bacteria must be pretty sensitive. It could even be that the foods we offer them are harmful to the bacteria. Maybe they eat a specific type of wood or leaf? Again, I agree that before anybody collects these and sends them away in hopes of a profit that they be thoroughly researched and experimented with. They are very beautiful animals and people would (do) love them. Who knows, maybe it is something extremely simple that once we find out they can flourish in the hobby and be virtually left alone in the wild?

[Peter Clausen]

I'm very curious about these bugs. I've never had them and have rarely seen them offered. I appreciate any time/information that can be shared on one or more of the following questions...

1. How many species of pill millipedes are there?

2. How many species have been repeatedly kept as pets? And which species are these?

3. Have young and mature ones been kept?

4. What temp, substrate and foods were offered? Any other care factors to share?

5. Have you kept them personally? How many times?

6. Are there any cases of them reproducing in captivity?

I am especially interested in first hand information, but rumor is fine too if it is presented as such. One of the things I enjoy about the community on this forum is the worldwide membership. I look forward to learning more!

Thank you,

Peter

[rafiqos]

I like this discussion. Will be following it closely.

I'd love to learn more about these symbiotic bacterias (or perhaps other mechanisms/fauna within rotting matter) that may be the key to successfully keeping them in captivity. Learning about bugs should be encouraged, especially among keepers who systematically study them and are able to deduce valuable information about so many of the things impossible to be observed in the wild.

I would love to hear from people who have kept these beautiful bugs personally.

[Ralph]

Well, I found some information from Golden Phoenix Exotica, who apparently did well with them for a while.

"These do quite well for us in the warmer side of the temperature range in very high humidity. We keep ours in what is basically a compost mixture of soil, leaves, and well rotted wood. We have also introduced several varieties of local fungi to the soil, but these have not been proven to be necessary."

They then added:

"Note: since the posting of this care sheet, most of the people apparently successfully keeping this species all experienced massive and complete die offs. We do not recommend this species as long term captives. We cannot in good conscience offer a species for sale when it is apparent to us that the requirements for its care and survival remain unknown. Just our opinion but you might wish to question the wisdom of those who do. The bottom of the caresheet gives an update on the reasons why we feel this way."

In For Love of Insects, Thomas Eisner experimented with Glomeris marginata, a small pill millipede. It's implied that he kept them alive for some amount of time, but he didn't give any information on how he did this.

[Matt K]

So there are two edges to the sword....

Devils advocate: ...if animals are not kept in captivity, we can't learn everything about thier husbandry/life processes and why they may be valuable to the place in which they live. But then again before they are taken from the wild, someone should find and observe enough to have some basis for thinking they would survive in captivity, and this is very difficult to have done for anything and everything, not to mention that somethings like pill millipedes you should be able to make some safe assumptions despite in this example they are wrong....

One could assume since a small number of African millipedes have been bred in captivity, why not others?

To answer Peters questions:

1. How many species of pill millipedes are there?

A: Appears to be a majority of them are unidentified, but I can locate a couple of dozen on the Web.

2. How many species have been repeatedly kept as pets?

A: That I can find out about. *And which species are these? Sphaerotherium hippocastaneum, Sphaerotherium marginepunctatum, Glommeris connexa, Arthrospaera cf. brandtii, Glomeris pustulata, Glomeris marginata, Sphaerotherium sp. 'Tanzania', but I am certain that there are others.... some are mentioned in French and German forums, but I dont really understand either language....

3. Have young and mature ones been kept?

A: Yes.

4. What temp, substrate and foods were offered? Any other care factors to share?

A: This appears to be wide and varied: some at warmer temps and others cooler. Substate is universally agreed to be rotting wood/leaves with various other ingredients. Always humid. Food is assumed to be the substrate thoiugh there is a report of (either a Madagascan or Australian variety) that was seen climbing a lichenous tree to the end of a branch where it fed on soft green leaf material. Finding accounts of what they have been known to eat and what they eat in the wild are very few and fewer respectively, so thier natural diet is fairly unknown.

5. Have you kept them personally? How many times?

A: Yes. Twice. Will not attempt it again. One was a Madagascan species and the other Tanzanian, both purchased from domestic retailers assumably shortly after importation. Enclosure was made to mimic thier home range as best as could be assumed: several centimeters of decaying leaf litter and composted bark. Various live plants were introduced and lichen covered hardwood branches (oak) were present- none of which were fed on. Feeding was seen on rare occasion on dead dry oak leaves, butternut squash, and cucumber all in very small quantities. I tried everything I could think of. Madagascan variety lasted only a few months, and the Tanzanian variety lasted almost two years, some grew in that time maybe 60% larger. None reproduced and all eventually died off. This seems to be the best case scenario reported anywhere. In my opinion if someone somewhere can breed them its one thing, if no one can or has thats another.

6. Are there any cases of them reproducing in captivity?

A: None.

Aa: No reproduction ever reported, few species reproted to have slight growth in captivity, only one to be known to live more than few/several months. A coincedence or not but smaller species seem to live longer captivly than larger species.

I am still occasionally looking into "leads" via the internet, but with recent millipede importation bans in the USA, it is doubtful I will ever really know personally unless I move to Europe. There are people in Germany that have extensive millipede collections, and I have to wonder if they have any luck.

Hoping Orin will chime in here, I am pretty sure he knows more about this than most people on Earth.... or at least I consider him a real expert on most things bug related....

[CodeWilster]

If ALL the species are dying quickly then we may be able to assume they are experiencing the same fate for the same reasons. If only we could figure it out! Then again it could be many reasons. A lot of people are convinced that the symbiotic bacteria dying off is what causes them to die. I wish RIESM was still up and running, they could disect and examine the flora living within its digestive system and hopefully get an ID on the bacterium. Then, maybe, we could find the same bacteria or an alternative within the already established cultures of cylindrical millipedes in captivity. If that were the case, it could be as simple as introducing the feces of the other millipede species into the pill millipedes' enclosures. I know with some (all?) species of millis the young must eat the feces of the parents in order to obtain that bacteria and thus begin to consume other organic matter. (This is why millipedes make "nests" for the eggs, coating the walls with feces underground). How many people here keep the normal pill bugs/rollie pollies found in the US? I've never kept these before but they are everywhere outside. Maybe they will be my start

[Ralph]

Pill bugs (Armadillidium sp.) are just about the easiest bug to raise. Anyway, I did some research on Bugnation and it appears that a few people in Europe keep them, but I don't think anyone has gotten them to breed. Keeping them with other millies is a pretty good idea.

[Matt K]

... I am not sure about the feces therory. When I take eggs out of my AGB tub they are scattered in the substrate, not in a feces lined nest of sorts. I move the eggs into another tub where adults have never lived and they develope into young AGBs just fine. Same with my greys, red legs, and narceus....

[CodeWilster]

... I am not sure about the feces therory. When I take eggs out of my AGB tub they are scattered in the substrate, not in a feces lined nest of sorts. I move the eggs into another tub where adults have never lived and they develope into young AGBs just fine. Same with my greys, red legs, and narceus....

If you had multiple AGBs in your tub it would make sense that as they are digging around the nest is destroyed and the eggs are scattered elsewhere. Maybe just a small amount of the bacteria is on the shells of the eggs and it is just enough to somehow make it to the babies when they hatch? I couldn't imagine you rinsing off the eggs before relocating them. I was told that they must have the bacteria otherwise their bodies could simply not break down some foods (similar to cows). Unless there was some way they were born with it but I highly doubt that. I'm not much of a microbiologist but it makes sense as there are not too many organisms that can break down cellulose without certain enzyme-producing bacteria!

[rafiqos]

I have also been told that gathering some of the substrate from the surrounding area near where the millipedes were found in the wild would help. Especially if you get to observe them foraging and feeding. Any pointers to the validity of this claim?

[Allpet Roaches]

One guy (in Germany I believe) reported breeding the adventive Tanzanian pill millipedes and had some convincing photos. I imagine the original adults died and who knows if any immatures are surviving today. I would guess he got in a female that was ready to lay eggs. Many people have kept that species and found the specimens live one or two years in captivity and then die. If they're poorly kept they die much more rapidly. The Madagascan pills die for some other reason as they're generally dead in a week to a few months, barely long enough to starve for any other millipede.

[Matt K]

Orin- Any thoughts on the need for frass-based bacterium to enter the gut of a protopede somehow so it can feed?

Relevant post: Regarding my AGBs- if you breed them you come to find that over time the substrate becomes somewhat packed down from all the motion on top, and when one digs it creates a distinct tunnel and appears to drop eggs behind it as it burrows along. If they are making an egg chamber, it seems hard to believe I would never have found one in upturning the substrate looking for eggs in the past few years at least on occasion- the millis dont burrow that much (for me anyway) to tear up egg chambers every single time... and then the same circumstances for 3 other species of millipedes that are smaller/more slender?

Slight tangent: I used to keep a common southern garden snail, Helix aspersa, which do form underground chambers to deposit eggs similar in size to A.gigas, so I know what it is like to turn over similar substrate to find a chamber of eggs to harvest....

[CodeWilster]

I don't know what any millipede "nest" looks like so I couldn't say. Mine bred several times unfortunately I never got any babies (I ended up selling them probably too soon before they laid eggs). I kept mine in peat moss with a fairly thick layer of leaves and moss. I noticed my female was sort of lazy (coiled up under her hide) and the male would wander around and dig, he loved digging in the corners!

The only reason I mention the "chambers" is because that is what sites talk about everywhere when you look up breeding millipedes online. Mine never laid eggs I know of period, and I can't really argue against people with extensive millipede breeding experience first hand and so I will trust you over those sites. Maybe only a few species do this or it is just something they do in the wild?

[Allpet Roaches]

Orin- Any thoughts on the need for frass-based bacterium to enter the gut of a protopede somehow so it can feed?

I'm pretty sure if you removed all the eggs and washed them off they'd die but then the handling alone would kill most species. You can remove the egg capsules if it's a species that makes them.

I thought you had a copy of the millipede book? It gives examples of different ways millipedes lay the eggs and a few capsule photos.

[Matt K]

I'm pretty sure if you removed all the eggs and washed them off they'd die but then the handling alone would kill most species. You can remove the egg capsules if it's a species that makes them.

I thought you had a copy of the millipede book? It gives examples of different ways millipedes lay the eggs and a few capsule photos.

A-HA !! That is where the confusion lies.... CodeW- they dont lay all thier eggs in a chamber like you were saying, they lay one egg in a capsule / chamber of sorts. This is well illustrated in Orins millipede book. Eggs in capsules means one egg per capsule... So how I read your post my understanding is that you were saying "eggs in a chamber" and not "egg in chambers".

Some lay in capsules and some just scatter them along.... and yes I never ever wash them nor do I touch them with my hands...I gently scoop them up with a spoon.

[CodeWilster]

A-HA !! That is where the confusion lies.... CodeW- they dont lay all thier eggs in a chamber like you were saying, they lay one egg in a capsule / chamber of sorts. This is well illustrated in Orins millipede book. Eggs in capsules means one egg per capsule... So how I read your post my understanding is that you were saying "eggs in a chamber" and not "egg in chambers".

Some lay in capsules and some just scatter them along.... and yes I never ever wash them nor do I touch them with my hands...I gently scoop them up with a spoon.

Some things can be very misleading! Where I read it it made it sound like "a hole lined with poop with a bunch of eggs in the center". I better get that book lol

[Peter Clausen]

To Rafigos: I think if you are collecting the pill millipedes in your local area you are also likely to have success with them if the supposed cause of death is related to the absence of good bacteria. You are in a unique position to do some experimenting!

To the group:

I'm confused as to how two years in captivity with observed growth can equate to "failure".?? Aside from a failure to breed them, it sounds like some successes have been achieved with the Tanzanian species in terms of keeping them alive. I'm not yet convinced that enough people have made enough attempts with large enough starter-cultures of these bugs to suggest that these are either impossible or morally wrong to keep. But, I'm listening and learning with an open mind!

I'm reading a lot of really interesting information here. More questions to ponder...

1. What is the lifespan of pill millipedes in the wild, anyway? Does anybody really know this information?

2. Is it possible that the Madagascan species are simply more sensitive to the pressures of export/import and re-shipping and/or that they had received no reasonable care for the month+ long journey to the end consumer's front door?

3. Rather than an absence of good digestive bacteria, might it be the presence of our exotic (native) bacteria of fungi that is killing them?

[Matt K]

I'm confused as to how two years in captivity with observed growth can equate to "failure".?? Aside from a failure to breed them...

1. What is the lifespan of pill millipedes in the wild, anyway? Does anybody really know this information?

2. Is it possible that the Madagascan species are simply more sensitive to the pressures of export/import and re-shipping and/or that they had received no reasonable care for the month+ long journey to the end consumer's front door?

3. Rather than an absence of good digestive bacteria, might it be the presence of our exotic (native) bacteria of fungi that is killing them?

Well to me "failure" is keeping something that is doomed to a death without reproduction...its a dead end road. There is no captive propogation or culture, just maintenance until dead.

Q: How many constitutes a 'starter culture'? Is there any reason to think 100 would be better than 12?

1a. I would think it would be several years just like other millipedes form various parts of the world- they all seem to have that in common. (assumption).

2a. Yes, thats possible, and likely, but that is a great reason to not try to get any to keep...

3a. This is possible too. So if that were the case it is again a bad idea to try to obtain and keep something if you can only keep it in a toxic environment.

I for one am completely NOT convinced its a problem with 'digestive bacteria'- that sounds like something someone made up along the way as it is a very easy and convenient explanation to assume without any facts to base it on. Did someone do a study of the gut fauna of fresh imports and then another on freshly deceased specimens to note an absence?

Shipping stress is much more plausible to me.... but there still seems to be something else otherwise I think at least a few of the ones that made it to Europe or America would have made it long term....

There is a person in a German university that I emailed whom I am hoping will chime in here.... and Orin, who I consider to be a leading domestic authority on 'pedes (among other bugs).

[Zephyr]

I'm kinda dumb to 'pedes, but, could it be possible that the only ones imported/sold are near the end of their life and would die even with proper care anyways?

[Peter Clausen]

Matt, I appreciate your responses to my quest for information about these bugs.

First, I want to make a quick off-topic clarification about the reproduction of bugs in captivity. Only a tiny percentage of bugs sold or exchanged, etc. ever end up having the opportunity to reproduce because they aren't presented with mates. Even if they do mate, the eggs or hatchlings are often doomed to death by negligence. My rough estimate is that less than 1% of pet bugs actually contribute genes to a successive generation. As an example, consider the number of AGB’s, tarantulas and scorpions that have been imported in the last decade vs. the (apparent) number of breeding successes. Tried to buy an AGB lately? Would tarantulas be so expensive if everybody was able to reproduce them by the hundreds?

Now, I understand that the point of this discussion is about how pill millipedes have been impossible to breed in captivity. Yet, I still question whether it is too soon to pass judgment. Certainly, it is for me because I'm not aware of very many people ever having had them. I admit that the only information I have about them comes from this discussion, so I will continue to ask more questions, seeking what is known vs. what is supposed.

Matt, you said you only had the Tanzanian species once and they lived two years. I have a lot of respect for you as a breeder. I fail to see why two years with growth doesn’t constitute some success (you originally said people can’t get them to “live”) and why their failure to reproduce under your conditions might not have been a fluke. After all, you’ve only kept them once. I realize you participate in many discussions on many forums and so I realize you have a tap on "the word on the street". But, I'm still seeking factual first hand info. here as I learn...

Yes, I believe that 100 is better than 12 to start with.

1. How many Tanzanian’s did you have, Matt?

2. How many lived to two years?

3. Were they mature?

4. How many other people have had male/female pairs of these? (I really have no idea, but to judge them as being impossible suggests that these are far more commonly imported and attempted in the hobby than I realized.)

5. How many other people that did have them had the first clue about millipede care, I wonder?

I don't mean to single you out, Matt, but you are the only person here aside from Rafigos that is offering first hand experience/feedback. Rafigos...how many do you have and how are they doing? Males and females, sizes? Do we know what species Rafigos has?

Thank you!

Peter

[Allpet Roaches]

The adventive Tanzanian pill millipedes probably live a decade going from their molt frequency (once a year for larger animals) and many people have never seen them molt despite thousands upon thousands that have been imported. AGBs are a difficult animal to breed but I know a few dozen people who have done it with certainty and I imagine there are hundreds more I don't know. The madagascan pills either ship poorly or are subjected to something by the exporter to prevent survival and breeding (this is not that odd since many fish in the past have been purposely sterilized by heating them up to the point where they nearly die). I only imagine this could be the case because the Madagascan fire millipedes that used to be imported along with them were likewise damaged but are otherwise hardy.

[Matt K]

I can't believe 100 would be any different than 12.

1. How many Tanzanian’s did you have, Matt?

I had 15, 3 died within a month, the next 12 lived almost 2 years.

2. How many lived to two years?

Just short of two years they started failing one here and one there untilall gone in about 2 years.

3. Were they mature?

No. Based on thier size and that they grew some in that time. Not getting as large as described on paper.

4. How many other people have had male/female pairs of these? (I really have no idea, but to judge them as being impossible suggests that these are far more commonly imported and attempted in the hobby than I realized.)

No way to know, though thousands have been imported.

5. How many other people that did have them had the first clue about millipede care, I wonder?

That is hard to know. There are quite a few millipede enthusiasts out there (www.diplopoda.de to start with).

I don't mean to single you out, Matt, but you are the only person here aside from Rafigos that is offering first hand experience/feedback.

No problem

Do we know what species Rafigos has?

Need more photos to know. But its reasonable to guess Arthrosphaera genus... there is one very similar in the region Arthrosphaera magna but has much more dark colors.... let me look into possiblilites...

[rafiqos]

Matt, I appreciate your responses to my quest for information about these bugs.

First, I want to make a quick off-topic clarification about the reproduction of bugs in captivity. Only a tiny percentage of bugs sold or exchanged, etc. ever end up having the opportunity to reproduce because they aren't presented with mates. Even if they do mate, the eggs or hatchlings are often doomed to death by negligence. My rough estimate is that less than 1% of pet bugs actually contribute genes to a successive generation. As an example, consider the number of AGB’s, tarantulas and scorpions that have been imported in the last decade vs. the (apparent) number of breeding successes. Tried to buy an AGB lately? Would tarantulas be so expensive if everybody was able to reproduce them by the hundreds?

Now, I understand that the point of this discussion is about how pill millipedes have been impossible to breed in captivity. Yet, I still question whether it is too soon to pass judgment. Certainly, it is for me because I'm not aware of very many people ever having had them. I admit that the only information I have about them comes from this discussion, so I will continue to ask more questions, seeking what is known vs. what is supposed.

Matt, you said you only had the Tanzanian species once and they lived two years. I have a lot of respect for you as a breeder. I fail to see why two years with growth doesn’t constitute some success (you originally said people can’t get them to “live”) and why their failure to reproduce under your conditions might not have been a fluke. After all, you’ve only kept them once. I realize you participate in many discussions on many forums and so I realize you have a tap on "the word on the street". But, I'm still seeking factual first hand info. here as I learn...

Yes, I believe that 100 is better than 12 to start with.

1. How many Tanzanian’s did you have, Matt?

2. How many lived to two years?

3. Were they mature?

4. How many other people have had male/female pairs of these? (I really have no idea, but to judge them as being impossible suggests that these are far more commonly imported and attempted in the hobby than I realized.)

5. How many other people that did have them had the first clue about millipede care, I wonder?

I don't mean to single you out, Matt, but you are the only person here aside from Rafigos that is offering first hand experience/feedback. Rafigos...how many do you have and how are they doing? Males and females, sizes? Do we know what species Rafigos has?

Thank you!

Peter

Some interesting points there Peter.

I've had 6 specimens (identified as Zephronia on Arachnoboards) in my keeping so far. These pills are kept communally in a 2ft stackable plastic container with moist cocopeat as substrate. I try to provide as much ventilation as I can; while trying to keep the humidity levels reasonable. I say reasonable because these pills were found in Cameron Highlands, Malaysia - and I live in Kuala Lumpur. Kuala Lumpur is much warmer than Cameron Highlands. The forests where these pills come from are cool and humid pretty much all throughout the day. I mist the walls of the container once every 2 days.

Here are some of my personal observation so far since I started keeping them end of May (27th May up to date).

1. I had 1 of the 6 specimens die out on me on the first week due to reasons known not by me.

2. The remaining 5 specimens have stayed hydrated and had possibly been feeding. I deduce this from the fact that they have not lost noticeable weight up til today. (Some will disagree with the conclusion drawn here as my progress keeping them is still at a very infantile age, it's alright to argue as we can all learn from each other).

3. What they feed on still puzzles me. They are extremely shy critters and will only roam in the dark. I will keep observing.

What I'm doing with them currently doesn't take much effort and I find them absolutely pleasing to keep. But should there be more insight and pointers showing why these beauties should not be collected and bred (try to), I may have to rethink. The only mature thing to do is to take the animals' side.

Do we know what species Rafigos has?

Need more photos to know. But its reasonable to guess Arthrosphaera genus... there is one very similar in the region Arthrosphaera magna but has much more dark colors.... let me look into possiblilites...

Ok Matt. I'll try and take more pictures of them over next week. Any suggested angles for me to try and capture will be good.

P/s: My nick says rafiqos.