RomanBuck Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 OH OH I totally forgot to even post this!!!!!! I got a Stagmomantis limbata from my friend Inkie14 and a Stagmomantis carolina from my friend Joe Murphy! I was (kind of) jokingly saying that I would pair them up and I thought I would never be successful on even them mounting... Well I walk in to Bio class (where I keep them) and I saw that the male had mounted the female!!!! I am sooooo happy! I hope the female will at least lay some ooths!!!! Or even better if she lays viable ooths!!!!!! I and Inkie14 have searched the internet and havent found anyone that has made these before so I could be the first and I would be able to name it!!!!!! I hope the ooths are viable!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pannaking22 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 That could lead to some interesting changes in the phylogeny of mantids if you get viable offspring. You might still get the ooth to hatch, but the big question is can the young mantids survive to adulthood and successfully breed. No matter what, good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanBuck Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Either way, I have people lined up for some babies! I am obviously going to give the people that gave me the male and female the pick of the brood! any good selling price for mantids?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pannaking22 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Large S. carolina typically go for around $7-10, though I know they are selling them for $15 on mantidpets.com (they typically price a bit high though). Not sure what to price the S. limbata at since it isn't commonly offered. You could probably ask $10-15 and have quick takers, though asking up to $20 would probably be alright for the die-hard mantis keeper. For the hybrids though, $7-10 is probably a fair asking price for the nymphs (at least L2), especially considering that you don't know if they will be able to reproduce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy1892 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Well, different species of mantids mount each other all the time, but do not get fertile ooths. I am not sure if different species even connect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanBuck Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 I have heard of hybrid mantids before but of different species so I am sure that they can connect. Are mantids anything like roaches as in offspring can produce with each other and not have inbreeding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy1892 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 You mean not have the problems from inbreeding. Yes, I was told by Trans-am on Mantidforum.net that it depends on the species. I think he said that they can inbreed for 4 generations or 8. Why do you say you are sure they can connect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanBuck Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 same genus, same size, I think they can be found in the same area but I dont know bout that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy1892 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Yes, S. limbata and S. carolina are together in the middle of Texas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanBuck Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 If they live side by side, why couldnt they hybridize? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cariblatta lutea Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 If they live side by side, why couldnt they hybridize? You might want to look up sympatric speciation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanBuck Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 So basically what you are saying is that even though they live side by side, they (sometimes) cant hybridize? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inkie14 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Animals employ a variety of mechanisms of reproductive isolation in order to prevent gene flow between similar species. It is often times important for a species' survival to remain genetically separated from others. It's all about preserving energy- and what greater waste of energy is there than to mate and produce offspring that may not be viable? Simply because two similar species are found in the same area doesn't mean that they will necessarily hybridize. My highschool biology teacher always talked about pre-zygotic and post-zygotic hybridization barriers. In a basic sense, a coyote won't mate with a fox because of pre-zygotic barriers- their reproductive organs don't fit together right, each individual isn't releasing the right pheromones and stuff that would attract them to each other, etc. etc. etc. But even if a scientist combined the fox egg and coyote sperm in a lab, and MAGICALLY they combined into a zygote, post-zygotic barriers would keep it from surviving. The zygote may die, the embryo may die later in development, or the baby might be born but it will be weak and/or sterile. This same idea applies to the mantises. Since they are in the same genus but different species, they are closely related. They both came from the same fairly recent ancestor. But think about how this speciation most likely took place. There was a Stagmomantis ancestor somewhere that split off into two groups of similar but genetically isolated mantids. And then those groups split off into two groups. (I don't know much about relatedness between californica, carolina, floridensis, and limbata- it's possible that they all split off at the same time from one ancestor, or that californica split off from carolina, or vice versa, idk ) But regardless, there was at one time a population of Stagmomantis A and Stagmomantis B where unless they were suddenly separated geographically by like a canyon or something and couldn't access each other, they had to develop ways to live in proximity to each other but not mate and produce viable offspring with each other. The end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanBuck Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 So they COULD possibly mate and have offspring that COULD be sterile? This is all so confusing for a high schooler LOL Well they are not mounted any more and the female should be laying here in a couple of weeks. So we shall see if the eggs are viable!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy1892 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 So they COULD possibly mate and have offspring that COULD be sterile? Yes. It happens occasionally with some species and with some it happens often. People might not have much information about these two species (S. carolina and S. limbata) yet, like many other animals. lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 IF two species can Hybridize and kept in captivity, I think the urge to mate is so strong they will mate with something not of their kind. Take the Liger as an example, that would never happen in the wild. There have been cases of dog/wolf hybrids in the wild but very, very rare because wolves usually kill domestic dogs. It was a rare case a female dog was in heat and lived outside and a lone male wolf who had no pack mated with her but probably only because he was low rank and wanted to start his own pack and that was the only female he could find. It's like the mantids, their kind is always around so hybrids rarely occur, in captivity forced mating putting them together makes it possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy1892 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 IF two species can Hybridize and kept in captivity, I think the urge to mate is so strong they will mate with something not of their kind. Take the Liger as an example, that would never happen in the wild. There have been cases of dog/wolf hybrids in the wild but very, very rare because wolves usually kill domestic dogs. It was a rare case a female dog was in heat and lived outside and a lone male wolf who had no pack mated with her but probably only because he was low rank and wanted to start his own pack and that was the only female he could find. It's like the mantids, their kind is always around so hybrids rarely occur, in captivity forced mating putting them together makes it possible. Actually I have read that wolves hybridize with dogs often, because there are not very wolves in the wild. And they also hybridize with coyotes (Read about Canis rufus, Red Wolf). Anyway wolves and dogs are in the same species so are very similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanBuck Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 Yes but I never forced them. I was either going to house them together forever or they breed and I separate them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticky Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 The European wild rabbit and the Cotton Tail can mate of course but the embryos divide a few times then dies. Ive never heard of a living hybrid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allpet Roaches Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 It sounds like you started with a wild-caught female. In that case the ootheca is likely to be fertile from previous matings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy1892 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 It sounds like you started with a wild-caught female. In that case the ootheca is likely to be fertile from previous matings. +1@Sticky, there are many hybrids that live (but often infertile) of different types of animals. Check out Mule, Liger and this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico_whiptail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RomanBuck Posted October 13, 2014 Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 She was wild caught but I believe she was a nymph before she got to me. Do mantids eat their shed sometimes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happy1892 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Do mantids eat their shed sometimes? No, but possibly one or a few species eat their sheds that I do not know about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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