All About Arthropods Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 Hey guys! Just created my 50th post, now I just have to get to 100! LOL To go along with this pretty exciting mile stone for my blog, I created a post detailing my very exciting day at the Tinley Park NARBC expo! Here it is: https://allaboutarthropods.blogspot.com/2016/10/50th-post-tinley-park-narbc-expo.html Hope you guys enjoy reading the post as much as I did writing it! Also got that picture for you Hisserdude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pannaking22 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 NARBC was great this year! I unfortunately wasn't able to make it out until today, but I found Kyle's booth and spent a couple hours chatting with him and walked away with several new roach species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All About Arthropods Posted October 17, 2016 Author Share Posted October 17, 2016 It sure was! That's too bad, would have been nice to meet you as well! Glad you were able to pick up some new roaches, what species did you purchase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pannaking22 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 Would have been nice to meet you too! I got: A. tonkawa (new) P. aegyptiaca (new) G. lurida "yellow" (new, though I have obscene numbers of the regular morph that I need to start selling) E. capucina (kept in the past, but didn't have any until yesterday) G. centurio (more numbers to bolster my now colony) Pure line G. portentosa Pretty good haul I'd say and it was nice to pick up a few nice intermediate species. Came really close to splitting a pair of L. grossei with another roacher who was eyeing them, but that ended up not happening. The Linothele fallax and L. megatheloides were really nice too and I thought about buying those as well since I haven't kept diplurids in a couple years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pannaking22 Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 And just to make it easy and answer hisserdude's question, the P. obscura was labeled P. cf obscura since Kyle isn't sure about it. The guy who sent it to him said it was but Kyle wasn't completely convinced. Contemplated picking that one up, but ended up not doing it in case it was just another P. saussurei which I already have several of. In terms of size, it was about as big as P. saussurei, but I'm not sure if it was an adult or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hisserdude Posted October 17, 2016 Share Posted October 17, 2016 And just to make it easy and answer hisserdude's question, the P. obscura was labeled P. cf obscura since Kyle isn't sure about it. The guy who sent it to him said it was but Kyle wasn't completely convinced. Contemplated picking that one up, but ended up not doing it in case it was just another P. saussurei which I already have several of. In terms of size, it was about as big as P. saussurei, but I'm not sure if it was an adult or not. Interesting, I've wondered myself if the P.obscura in the hobby are just P.saussurei, seeing as the only photos of the "P.obscura" that I've seen look exactly like P.saussurei. Thanks for the info man, I appreciate it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All About Arthropods Posted October 17, 2016 Author Share Posted October 17, 2016 Would have been nice to meet you too! I got: A. tonkawa (new) P. aegyptiaca (new) G. lurida "yellow" (new, though I have obscene numbers of the regular morph that I need to start selling) E. capucina (kept in the past, but didn't have any until yesterday) G. centurio (more numbers to bolster my now colony) Pure line G. portentosa Pretty good haul I'd say and it was nice to pick up a few nice intermediate species. Came really close to splitting a pair of L. grossei with another roacher who was eyeing them, but that ended up not happening. The Linothele fallax and L. megatheloides were really nice too and I thought about buying those as well since I haven't kept diplurids in a couple years. Nice! Do the pure G.portentosa look any different than the normal Gromphadorhina sp."Hybrid."? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All About Arthropods Posted October 17, 2016 Author Share Posted October 17, 2016 And just to make it easy and answer hisserdude's question, the P. obscura was labeled P. cf obscura since Kyle isn't sure about it. The guy who sent it to him said it was but Kyle wasn't completely convinced. Contemplated picking that one up, but ended up not doing it in case it was just another P. saussurei which I already have several of. In terms of size, it was about as big as P. saussurei, but I'm not sure if it was an adult or not. Forgot the cf part! Yeah, wouldn't want to blow $100 on a possible P.saussurei. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All About Arthropods Posted October 18, 2016 Author Share Posted October 18, 2016 Update on the blog post: Sexed the E.sinensis"White Eye" and it looks like I've got 14 females and 8 males! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pannaking22 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Interesting, I've wondered myself if the P.obscura in the hobby are just P.saussurei, seeing as the only photos of the "P.obscura" that I've seen look exactly like P.saussurei. Thanks for the info man, I appreciate it! You bet, happy to help! I wonder if there's any size difference? Kyle had made it sound like they got quite a bit larger, but even he wasn't sure about that since any real hobby details on that species are sketchy at best. Nice! Do the pure G.portentosa look any different than the normal Gromphadorhina sp."Hybrid."? They're still pretty small, so only time will tell! The adults are supposed to be pure black and massive compared to the hybrids, so I'm really looking forward to when they reach adulthood! Update on the blog post: Sexed the E.sinensis"White Eye" and it looks like I've got 14 females and 8 males! Congrats, sounds like you're well on your way to (eventually) having a big colony! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All About Arthropods Posted October 18, 2016 Author Share Posted October 18, 2016 They're still pretty small, so only time will tell! The adults are supposed to be pure black and massive compared to the hybrids, so I'm really looking forward to when they reach adulthood! Congrats, sounds like you're well on your way to (eventually) having a big colony! Wow, that's awesome! Definitely interested in seeing pics of them as they grow! Thanks! Have you see either of these videos Hisserdude? The roaches in the video are supposed to be P.obscura, they seem pretty massive, do P.saussurei get that large as adults? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salmonsaladsandwich Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Wait, pure G. portentosa are pure black and massive? http://www.roachcrossing.com/for-sale/roach/all/common-hisser/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hisserdude Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Wait, pure G. portentosa are pure black and massive? http://www.roachcros.../common-hisser/ Perhaps he's got a black strain of pure hissers? 'Cause normal pure hissers are supposed to be solid orange color, at least that's what Kyle says, my hybrids are more of a dull brown in most specimens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hisserdude Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Wow, that's awesome! Definitely interested in seeing pics of them as they grow! Thanks! Have you see either of these videos Hisserdude? The roaches in the video are supposed to be P.obscura, they seem pretty massive, do P.saussurei get that large as adults? I think saw those videos a long time ago, but had forgotten about them until now. The quality of the videos are too low to see any real details, they look a little bigger than the P.saussurei I've seen, but not by much. Anyway, I thought P.obscura was supposed to be smaller than P.saussurei? BTW, your signature is a little messed up atm, a ton of space after the list of your inverts plus the blogger tool button at the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All About Arthropods Posted October 18, 2016 Author Share Posted October 18, 2016 I think saw those videos a long time ago, but had forgotten about them until now. The quality of the videos are too low to see any real details, they look a little bigger than the P.saussurei I've seen, but not by much. Anyway, I thought P.obscura was supposed to be smaller than P.saussurei? BTW, your signature is a little messed up atm, a ton of space after the list of your inverts plus the blogger tool button at the bottom. I thought pannaking said that P.obscura were larger, now I'm confused! Thanks, I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out, fixed it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hisserdude Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 I thought pannaking said that P.obscura were larger, now I'm confused! Thanks, I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out, fixed it now. Panna said that Kyle says they get bigger, but wasn't sure because details of P.obscura in the hobby are sketchy, and they sure are. From what I've read in Orin's new book, P.obscura is smaller than P.saussurei, but on this European breeder's website, it states that P.obscura get larger than P.saussurei. Who knows what the truth is, or if the two stocks "obscura" and "saussurei" are even two different species? The fact that there are two very similar looking species in the hobby, and that both stocks happen to be parthenogenic strains of species that normally have males seems a little fishy to me, seems more likely to me that they are the same species, and that stock got split into two different names just because of size difference. That's just a theory of mine though, I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pannaking22 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Wait, pure G. portentosa are pure black and massive? http://www.roachcros.../common-hisser/ Hmmm, either he has a black strain like Hisserdude said, or I misheard him while looking at other species. Regardless, looking forward to them growing and seeing what they're like as adults! Perhaps he's got a black strain of pure hissers? 'Cause normal pure hissers are supposed to be solid orange color, at least that's what Kyle says, my hybrids are more of a dull brown in most specimens. I've found the the hybrids at my university are all across the board color-wise, but they've also had at least a decade to breed and I don't how often, if ever, new genes are added. Panna said that Kyle says they get bigger, but wasn't sure because details of P.obscura in the hobby are sketchy, and they sure are. From what I've read in Orin's new book, P.obscura is smaller than P.saussurei, but on this European breeder's website, it states that P.obscura get larger than P.saussurei. Who knows what the truth is, or if the two stocks "obscura" and "saussurei" are even two different species? The fact that there are two very similar looking species in the hobby, and that both stocks happen to be parthenogenic strains of species that normally have males seems a little fishy to me, seems more likely to me that they are the same species, and that stock got split into two different names just because of size difference. That's just a theory of mine though, I could be wrong. Yeah, Kyle wasn't all that sure himself and with the hobby not really even being sure it's hard to say. I'll probably go digging through the literature a bit this weekend if I have time and maybe uncover some taxonomic answers. It's a tough call with both species being parthenogenic, but that isn't too uncommon in the invert world (Tityus in the scorpion world being one of the best known). I think schaben-spinnen is usually on top of it, but I don't actually know the people running it, so I can't make any real judgement. I'm inclined to believe Orin here because of the mountain of experience he has and I don't doubt that he has looked into this species before. They may just need to be synonymized, but if there's at least some sort of difference one might get a subspecies status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hisserdude Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Yeah, Kyle wasn't all that sure himself and with the hobby not really even being sure it's hard to say. I'll probably go digging through the literature a bit this weekend if I have time and maybe uncover some taxonomic answers. It's a tough call with both species being parthenogenic, but that isn't too uncommon in the invert world (Tityus in the scorpion world being one of the best known). I think schaben-spinnen is usually on top of it, but I don't actually know the people running it, so I can't make any real judgement. I'm inclined to believe Orin here because of the mountain of experience he has and I don't doubt that he has looked into this species before. They may just need to be synonymized, but if there's at least some sort of difference one might get a subspecies status. Yeah, I'd like to know what morphological features separate the two species so that we can identify what we have in the hobby. I did notice in pictures of museum specimens that P.saussurei females look much more glossy than those of P.obscura, which have more of a matte finish like P.aegyptiaca. However, adults of both "species" in the hobby look the same on schaben spinnen, and strangely enough both look pretty matte in his photos, but the P.saussurei Kyle sells are very glossy. I'm not saying that the whole two species need to be reevaluated, I'm just saying the stock in the hobby does, cause we may just have two strains of P.saussurei that are labled incorrectly, or vice versa. Only problem is, I bet the two species can only be definitively identified by the adult males, like in Arenivaga, so there may not be a reliable way to differentiate the two by looking at the females, which are all we have in the hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pannaking22 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Yeah, I'd like to know what morphological features separate the two species so that we can identify what we have in the hobby. I did notice in pictures of museum specimens that P.saussurei females look much more glossy than those of P.obscura, which have more of a matte finish like P.aegyptiaca. However, adults of both "species" in the hobby look the same on schaben spinnen, and strangely enough both look pretty matte in his photos, but the P.saussurei Kyle sells are very glossy. I'm not saying that the whole two species need to be reevaluated, I'm just saying the stock in the hobby does, cause we may just have two strains of P.saussurei that are labled incorrectly, or vice versa. Only problem is, I bet the two species can only be definitively identified by the adult males, like in Arenivaga, so there may not be a reliable way to differentiate the two by looking at the females, which are all we have in the hobby. It may not be a bad idea to re-evaluate the two species, though unfortunately I don't see that happening in the near future. Roach taxonomy definitely needs some flushing out though to begin to make any sense. Seeing as this is a parthenogenic species, I'm betting the major characters used for identification will be in the genitalia. It would definitely be best for the hobby to determine whether it's one species with a different "morph", or if we really are dealing with two different species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanislas Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 I've good news regarding this issue: There is a Chinese article that describes how one can distinguish P. obscura from P. saussurei. "Study on the morphology and internal structures of Polyphaga obscura Chopart" (http://europepmc.org/abstract/CBA/297263) I've manages to get the complete article, and my Chinese colleague has read it for me. Basically, the ootheca differ. The ootheca teeth differ: Polyphage saussurei has more spaced teeth (the article describes the space between the teeth > 1/2 width of the teeth): (source image: http://www.cic-net.co.jp/blog/cat6/polyphaga_saussurei/) Polyphaga obscura: teeth closer together (article describes this as space between teeth < 1/2 width teeth): (source image: http://www.cic-net.co.jp/blog/cat6/polyphaga_obscura/) I have both Polyphaga saussurei and obscura. But the P. obscura are still small, so I cannot compare yet. My P. saussurei roaches are indeed very shiny: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hisserdude Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 35 minutes ago, stanislas said: I've good news regarding this issue: There is a Chinese article that describes how one can distinguish P. obscura from P. saussurei. "Study on the morphology and internal structures of Polyphaga obscura Chopart" (http://europepmc.org/abstract/CBA/297263) I've manages to get the complete article, and my Chinese colleague has read it for me. Basically, the ootheca differ. The ootheca teeth differ: Polyphage saussurei has more spaced teeth (the article describes the space between the teeth > 1/2 width of the teeth): (source image: http://www.cic-net.co.jp/blog/cat6/polyphaga_saussurei/) Polyphaga obscura: teeth closer together (article describes this as space between teeth < 1/2 width teeth): (source image: http://www.cic-net.co.jp/blog/cat6/polyphaga_obscura/) I have both Polyphaga saussurei and obscura. But the P. obscura are still small, so I cannot compare yet. My P. saussurei roaches are indeed very shiny: Very interesting, thank you very much for the information! Interesting how the oothecae can be used to differentiate the two. So it looks like there really are both species in the hobby, hopefully some US breeders will be able to get their hands on some P.obscura soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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