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Ralph

Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation  

42 members have voted

  1. 1. Which do you believe in?

    • Evolution
      22
    • Creation/Intelligent Design
      12
    • Mixture of both
      9


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Just wondering what you guys' views are on this. I personally am a creationist. I have a feeling Evolution is gunna get a lot o' votes.

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In order to vote in your poll that designates that they are mutually exclusive…

Anybody with any science background would also tell you that one doesn't BELIVE in evolution. You don’t BELIVE in science (or at least the “good” scientist doesn’t, but some “scientists” do)…the data can either support or not support a hypothesis. While this topic lies out of the scope of the forum, I love having this conversation with creationists and noncreationists. Playing with fire is fun. I’m not sure if this is the place though…depends on how moderators feel I suppose.

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In order to vote in your poll that designates that they are mutually exclusive…

You're totally right. I'll add a third option.

Anybody with any science background would also tell you that one doesn't BELIEVE in evolution. You don’t BELIEVE in science (or at least the “good” scientist doesn’t, but some “scientists” do)…the data can either support or not support a hypothesis. While this topic lies out of the scope of the forum, I love having this conversation with creationists and noncreationists. Playing with fire is fun. I’m not sure if this is the place though…depends on how moderators feel I suppose.

I take it you are an evolutionist. :lol: Anyway, if the mods think that this is too... heavy?, than they can take it down. Playing with fire is fun though, and I don't see many debates on this forum (That may be good or bad, I suppose).

Just to clarify, everybody knows that microevolution/natural selection happens; it can be seen with domestic animals and such. This poll is mainly talking about how life began. Guess I should have been more specific.

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Oh Fun !!!!

Evolutionary creationist. Or creationary evolutionist. Or evolving creationist. Or creative revolvingist. While I may believe in God I have faith that humans are far too arrogant and narrow minded to really understand how life evolved...

Now I have to rant and try not to go too many incoherant directions at once:

The fact of the matter is we have no idea how life began on Earth. We barely undertand how life exists today. We just suppose different things. People for the most part are relatively simple so anything that is easy for them to digest is what they want to believe. I believe that we have no idea and its all guess work. Example: We like to believe that we (we = human race) collectively have made many discoveries about dinosaurs and believe we know a few things. However, we really have no idea how they behaved or what they really looked like, what they ate, how fast they grew, etc., but we like to believe it was something relative to what we know about life today even though I suspect it was nothing like we think it might have been. For years we thought T-Rex stood upright and lumbered along dragging its butt, but then we bgan to consider that it might have slightly crouched forward in a more lateral position balancing head and tail. We then also like to believe that maybe it was fast and ran around alot. In the movies T-Rex even growls and hollers all the time. I like to think that if they were reptiles, they all laid around most of the time quietly, until it was time to eat a local cohabitant or go off and mate... anyone who has cared for crocs or large monitors might better understand this.... My point is that while we have some evidence that dinosaurs existed anything beyond that is a fairy tale. If scientists cannot accurately and consistantly identify modern species of primates, roaches, fish, etc., how dare they think they can assign a subspecies to fossil bones of an incomplete skeleton! I mean come on, really. Thats like predicting the weather in 1000 or 100 years when we can't get it very accurate over the next 10 days. We go from global ice age to global warming, then global warming in the middle of a much larger over all ice age and then waiver inbetween warming and cooling. Come on, really.

Stick to the facts that we know, and avoid the ideas that seem like they might be factual. I suggest to others from time to time that we not confuse the idea that there is science in one hand and faith in the other..... the two are as entwined as DNA.

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Well here's my two cents. I have almost always believed in pure evolution. It makes a lot of sense to me and I've never been a strict religious conformist. Big fan of science and nature.

That was the first penny. Here's penny number two. I don't know a whole lot about the big bang or anything like that but I know that I was a sailor for quite some time, a submariner to be exact, and there where times when we surfaced and...seeing a sunset in the middle of the ocean with no land in sight made me feel that there had to be something else. I guess it's silly to fall back on emotion but there were just too many coincidences out there for me to say that luck or even skill kept us alive.

Also I'm a historian and I've seen when looking at historical events there is rarely one single cause. Often the different views of different historians make more sense when they are combined and you can't apply one truth to all events. That's universalism.

I guess what I'm saying is that I feel confident that evolution occured, and have a feeling that there is some sort of supreme being, who may have set things in motion, although might or might not have directly influenced every step.

I guess that ended up being 4 cents instead of two

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Off topic but I had a few comments after reading the other posts.

Ralph -"Playing with fire is fun though" Ya it can be unless it's with your wife. She's a devout creationist with no room for any interpretation or alteration. Our evolutionary debates always turn into bitter wars. Then she'll wait a while and start baiting me with questions when we see some show that mentions it. grrrrr!!

Matt K- outstanding post. I like how you mentioned relativism and how we study the dinosaurs and use the data to make assumptions about their lives. We have limited data and run the risk of interpreting that data through schemes that we understand because they apply to our times. In history theres a theory called postmodernism that says that history can not be accurately studied from the perspective of the present because we lend our own influence to it. People often take historical situations and apply emotions and feelings to the characters in play when it is impossible to determine what emotions they would have had given that their society was different. Totally agree with the dinosaurs. I understand interpreting movement from skeletal remains, but I always get a kick out of it when they have shows that describe the skin coloration of dinosaurs. We can assume that they tried to blend in with their surroundings, but who is to say that dinosaur eye rods and cones saw the same way that we do. What if Hunter Orange was completely invisible to them.

Global warming. I love it. I always like to point out that there was already one ice age a long time before we had cars. Could the methane gas from dinosaur flatulence? Hilarious.

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Uhh... and where is the fire in that discussion? Sorry for asking stupid questions but for me (maybe because I'm from Switzerland) there is no fire in that poll.

One of the advantages being part of a community from another culture is that one can learn a lot! That’s the reason why I’m answering here.

One: I agree with Matt (at least the part I understood).

Two: I don’t believe, either I know or I suppose but I don’t have any need of belief.

Three: For me the question is insufficiently asked.

Creation/Intelligent Design: Creation is not the same as I.D. because a non-Christ can/could believe in I.D. but not in creation (which is strictly old testimony).

What is evolution? Nowadays we know that evolution is a manifold of what Darwin stated. We now know about co-evolution and see the things in a more “holistic” way (e.g. dependences over several edges and longer distances) but we still just know a little part of the evolution around as (meaning here in the present) and we can try to extrapolate to the past. But evolution does not describe nor explain the beginning of life (which will always be something in the dark OR the real thing to BELIEVE in, that’s what I “believe”…).

Fire (or at least a trial): Evolutionary creationism in my eyes is complete rubbish. Don’t know what a parable means or what?

Nothing against the bible, as long as it’s handled as a historic document greatly influenced by socio-cultural and political circumstances and strongly depending on the arbitrariness of some people who handed it down over generations and tried to translate texts (without enough knowledge of old Hebrew or without the will to use it…). Why aren’t the scrolls of Qumran not part of the bible jet?

Nothing against religion too. Some people seem to need that (could be better than opium) whilst others get completely crazy for theirs (well, without religion they would find another reason for war or whatsoever). I mean: if someone needs something to believe in for the sake of his soul or his good night sleep then he/she should believe. It’s not a matter of rationality but of purpose. Belief never did anything good to science but it can bring miracles to the human psyche (depending on the religion or the people who preach it).

And nothing against gods. There might be indeed some force or power usually invisible to mankind (like radioactivity was before Marie Curie). But even thou I have a blooming fantasy I can hardly imagine that this kind of (well, I can’t call it superior nor intelligent in a human sense) entity ever did start (create) life on purpose. As for radioactivity there might be more forces influencing our lives and our planet or (re-)acting in between of us than we will ever know. But a god is just something mankind believes in, gave it a name (and sometimes offerings) and assumes it being better, more intelligent and more powerful than ourselves. Looking at natural religions explains to me why this could or had to happen… And let’s say: A god can be extinct, namely by stop in believing in it. If there wouldn’t be any humans (or in a time before humans appeared on the planet) there wouldn’t be (wasn’t) belief (in the sense we know) and therefore no gods. But still there would be (was) a beginning. What I want to say: Creationism would not (or did not) exist but in pure theory Intelligent Design could have happened… (OK, that’s a fist in the face of a deeply believing Christ… nail me on a cross if you feel like… uups I did it again…)

*Pour-oil-on-fire* Something against intelligent design: How the f*** did some people manage it that this has become part of biology lessons in schools in the US??? (Sorry if I’m misinformed!)

If someone wants to close his/her eyes before rational thinking and science than OK, go to the church on Sunday or close your ears in classroom (and become maybe jobless) but for sure don’t teach the children such things in biology lessons! Well, one could quarrel if Darwin’s evolution theory is really that likely but it’s for sure a good example on scientific theories, rationality, and observations of natural processes and the environment we live in. And therefore belongs in the education. I’d feel like running amok if that would happen in Switzerland. Well, we have some lessons (separated from “normal” school) where religion is learned, preached and/or discussed. I’m fine with that because here one (e.g. the children) can see that there is a difference and that this is religion and not science as well as that here rationality and logics are quite useless. So at least we have the choice in what fits better in our lives. (Maybe that’s one reason why the church looses its disciples here around?)

Now you may think that I’m completely guided by ratio but that’s not the case. I’m a human being and full of instincts and subconscious impulses whilst lacking the intelligence to understand or being able to explain everything (just trying hard to do so). But I’m fine with that and therefore belong if anything to the agnosticism and if I’d see an “entity” (in an esoteric meaning) in the forest I’m not going to think “Uh, now I’m crazy, gimme some pills!” nor “That was just a shadow, maybe…” but rather accept it and try to find out what “it” was (and get some more knowledge or use out of it). If, lets say, I would meet an elf which tells me how to see through walls, I wouldn’t care whether this elf is rational nor how it works that light suddenly can pass a wall. I’d going to accept it because the only thing that counts is the fact that I can get something useful out of it and life goes on.

A believing person would now start to believe in elfs, pray to them, and asking it existential questions whilst a real rational one would torture its brains in search of a logic explanation coming to the conclusion that it’s impossible and wouldn’t therefore see through walls (even if that means closing the eyes every time a wall comes into vision). I’m somewhere in between… or over or beside it?

And finally (coming back to the initial question): I think it’s more likely that some kind of evolution made us what we are and not the will of something “big”. How life began is an unresolved “mystery” as long as we can’t do it in vitro and everyone is free to believe or not whatever he/she feels best with! And for the future: at the moment evolution does no more apply to the human race and religions... ahhh... well, lets say I'm waiting for an intervention!

P.S.

If you now hate me for something I said: I’m sorry if I spoiled your day (if not then not…).

If you find incoherent or contradictory statements it’s either due to my not so great English knowledge or due to my somehow undefined world view caused by head v.s. heart.

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Well, for my case in favor of a deity, I say take a good look at E8.

Where did the other dimensions go if we only have 4 and the others are mathematically proven to exist?

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Hi Zephyr

I think you mix something up.

I don't want to convince you of someting, I just do some thinking (I have a boring night-shift at the moment).

There are 3 dimensions in which we (as matter) physically are but these aren't enough to describe the existence of life or energy in that room. Therefore the fourth dimension TIME has been introduced which isn't spatial anymore.

In mathematics a dimension is a direction (a vector) perpendicular to another (all others). Mathematically there are infinete amounts of dimensions with which one (not me, THAT was the only thing in maths where I was a nut) can easily do calculations (even building a house in 6D :D ). But this additional dimensions can't be visualized or sketched and they don't include time nor life.

Your additional dimensions therefore can't (in that theoretically proven sense) be an explanation for gods.

And the additional dimensions have nothing to do with "the beginning" (some scientists "believe" it was the Big Bang), because this was the beginning of the 4 dimensions (at least OUR 4-D's).

Only because the possibility of the existance of something doesn't mean that it really has to exist.

By the way: If one wants to prove god or similar "things" one has to know the definition of it and I think every single person would define those different. A proof of existance wouldn't change belief/religion as long as there is no proof of "its" deeds.

Well, lets assume that there are a few more spatial dimensions and in No. 16 to 23 some kind of life form or energy exists.

If "they" don't possess the ability to interact with ours (as we don't with theirs) would it be of any sense for us that they exist? No! So forget them! If they do, well... OK... We can show that their "room" could be possible but we still can't influence them (at least not in a way in which we could know that it works). So why believe in them?

What if there are more dimensions which aren't nor room nor time but something else? That would maybe explain miracles, paranormal phenomena and stuff like that but here we can't prove the existance of this sort of dimensions. Either we are to stupide for that or they really don't exist (which would be a pitty). I like the idea because this dimensions could be accessible for us (not as scientists but as human beings). If someone knows how to use or manipulate such a dimension (by lets say levitation or walking over water) would it be necessary to scientifically prove that dimension to let that person fly or water-walk? NO! The only thing now would be to believe in this dimensions. I think the persons using it KNOWS it and those who can't "see/prove" it would (even if believing in it) still be excluded from it. So belief is in vain (or not?). Either know or let go... It would be OK to "believe" in what that particularly skilled person says about this dimension. But to be honest it would be enough to just trust him/her and try to care for him/her to prevent him/her of getting a megalomaniac.

If in this non-physical dimensions other "beings" exist, they might be gods but does that mean that they were involved in creation? I think in that case they would be as dependant on "the system" as we are and if interaction would be possible they would be influenced by evolution too. Could their influence be so strong to influence our evolution and wouldn't it then be not creation but evolution again just in more dimensions :P ? If their dimensions began with ours "who" then decided to "start" our dimensions and/or life? Questions which don't let some people sleep and for which they need an answer (namely god). I stay fine without knowing and I'm fine with the idea that there might be something which from time to time manipulates our existence but I don't believe in it. Even if it will be proven in the future it wouldn't change anything cause the influences would be the same (too weak for a good/bad god)! I accept "occurances" which can't be explained rationally but I let them be unexplained. Maybe the fact that H. sapiens is to stupid to see the truth is THE answer for me?

Besides: WHAT IS E8??? Just know G20 :D...

Grüessli

Andreas

P.S. Should there really be a rational/scientific proof of a superior power? If one can proof such a force (being notably able of interactions with us and therefore "within reach") wouldn't it then be possible to (mis-)use it too? And how should one prove that such a superiority has a will (only with a will it is more than just a part of the environment and therefore of evolution) when we can't even prove that animals have a will and the will of a human beings is only accepted as proven by reason and subjective impression and not by objective hard science.

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Just to clarify, everybody knows that microevolution/natural selection happens; it can be seen with domestic animals and such.

Selection (not natural by definition) is seen in domesticated animals. The classic 'natural' case with the colored moths and industrial pollution turned out to be based on falsified information.

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Selection (not natural by definition) is seen in domesticated animals. The classic 'natural' case with the colored moths and industrial pollution turned out to be based on falsified information.

So the peppered moth case was a fake?!? Also to Pharma (if I'm reading your post right), Why would a God/gods have to exist in another dimension? They might exist in our dimension, but are invisible to us for whatever reason.

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Not so many votes as yet.

--------------

Evolutionist - thats where the single vote (so far) came from....

--------------

Do not see any point in involving God.

I listened to a lecture of a physicist, who was able to phrase it right (at least for me): Belief starts when physics ends. If you know a lot of physics, it may come later and like with primitive tribes it will begin very early as when they look at a pretty stone.

So ultra short: I have chosen not to involve God because I simply believe that the brain of Man is yet too small to comprehend the bigger picture of it all. Consolation: The human brain grows at a speed of 40,000 extra brain cells per generation...

When I look around, nobody has the capacity to explain where we came from and certainly nobody can predict where we will be in "only" one million year. "Only", because one million years is nothing compared to infinity and the evolution of the universe. And we are just sitting here confined on a planet looking into the universe with small binoculars trying to look for traces of Big Bang and life on other planets because scientists believe life can evolve on other planets if they have similar conditions to Earth.

At the same time men with big nuts wanting to rule the world is behaving like they own it all driving everybody to move in the direction of selfdestruction to provide extra for the greedy. Future generations is of no importance because the perspective of such people are too short to see beyond their own death. They pay to the church and feel holy and say they believe in God, but they are not prepared to save His creation anyway.

So my pessimism ends with the only thing that keeps us out of the madhouse: Humour - and who better than Monty Python with Eric Idle to set it in perspective (the two last lines are my favourites = a good point) :

The Galaxy Song

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving

And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,

That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,

A sun that is the source of all our power.

The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see

Are moving at a million miles a day

In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,

Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.

Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.

It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.

It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,

But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.

We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.

We go 'round every two hundred million years,

And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions

In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding

In all of the directions it can whizz

As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,

Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.

So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,

How amazingly unlikely is your birth,

And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,

'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

--------------------

BR/

Ole

PS. At the risk of stirring up something: We are told here in Europe that "Intelligent Design" have only become a topic in US as a mean to make the people Christian again.

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True Story: Two Fridays ago, a miracle occured in my life. My keys ended up in a friend's pocket at work. Neither of us recalled exchanging them. I'm open minded to the possibliy that we DID exchange them but neither of us remembered doing so. And I'm open to the possibility that something more mysterious occurred. I wondered out loud if maybe something important would or wouldn't have happened if my keys hadn't ended up in his pocket. Who knows? It was an entertaining mystery for a minute and then it was over and I had to decide exactly where to place my next foot as I walked out of the building (a little more carefully than usual).

I couldn't always walk, you know. At one time I didn't know how. My body had a rather miraculous plan though. Shortly before all this, I existed partly in my mother's body and partly in my father's. It was a miracle I was ever born, but here I am.

Here we are! In numerous countries from around the world people have gathered together to have a conversation that has been had since the beginning of consciousness. It is miraculous that nature evolved a brain that could ask this question. Someday it will answer it too, but what's the hurry? Oh, you want to know before you die? Well, buddy, that ain't happening!

Accept the mystery! Enjoy it! You don't have to have the answers to be happy right now. You don't have to label yourself or anybody else. We're all the same. We all have doubts and anybody that thinks they've put the puzzle together really hasn't even opened the box yet. (sure you can look at picture on the box, but it's not the same.)

The great majority of organisms on this planet don't even have labels/names yet. Next to nothing is known about most of the species that do have names. Before we figure out where they came from, let's figure out what we have. In the meantime, we'll all get where we're going.

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True Story: Two Fridays ago, a miracle occured in my life. My keys ended up in a friend's pocket at work. Neither of us recalled exchanging them. I'm open minded to the possibliy that we DID exchange them but neither of us remembered doing so. And I'm open to the possibility that something more mysterious occurred. I wondered out loud if maybe something important would or wouldn't have happened if my keys hadn't ended up in his pocket. Who knows? It was an entertaining mystery for a minute and then it was over and I had to decide exactly where to place my next foot as I walked out of the building (a little more carefully than usual).

I couldn't always walk, you know. At one time I didn't know how. My body had a rather miraculous plan though. Shortly before all this, I existed partly in my mother's body and partly in my father's. It was a miracle I was ever born, but here I am.

Here we are! In numerous countries from around the world people have gathered together to have a conversation that has been had since the beginning of consciousness. It is miraculous that nature evolved a brain that could ask this question. Someday it will answer it too, but what's the hurry? Oh, you want to know before you die? Well, buddy, that ain't happening!

Accept the mystery! Enjoy it! You don't have to have the answers to be happy right now. You don't have to label yourself or anybody else. We're all the same. We all have doubts and anybody that thinks they've put the puzzle together really hasn't even opened the box yet. (sure you can look at picture on the box, but it's not the same.)

The great majority of organisms on this planet don't even have labels/names yet. Next to nothing is known about most of the species that do have names. Before we figure out where they came from, let's figure out what we have. In the meantime, we'll all get where we're going.

Well Put.....

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This is a pretty mature battle guys...I love this forum. On other forums [Arachno-*cough cough*] much more harsh words would be exchanged as one side overpowers the other by a long shot and eventually the thread is closed and infractions are handed out (trust me, been there). Anyway sorry to have revived this but it was around before I got here and I am fighting back whether I should put in my two cents or not. So...The yes two cents won :P

Ok so here's my thoughts.

First of all, by reading my profile, signature, etc...you can tell right away where this is going!!!

I grew up in a Christian family. VERY Christian. God made man God made monkeys. God made dinosaurs God made birds. And that's that. It was only recently that my innocence and oblivion was confronted by the other beliefs of this world. Now that I am much more of an apologetic believer I can sort of speak from both sides. As I grow up and am further forced to fight for what I believe, I will become more persuasive but until then this is all that I've got. One thing has not changed and that is my faith in God and faith in creation. Instead of getting immediately defensive when I met evolutionists, I would instead look as deep into their arguments as I could to find the loopholes.

One of the first things I noticed was how some evolutionary scientists firmly believe that dinosaurs evolved into aves over a period of millions of years. They would compare the bone structures and theorize that dinosaurs are in fact their ancestors. Well, what I noticed was that if it took millions of years for dinosaurs to evolve into birds, why do we lack a single fossil that proves any sort of morphological evolution between the two? We have fossils of dinosaurs and we have birds. Nothing inbetween. First fallicy that hardly persuaded my beliefs the other way.

Next, the whole idea that the Earth is a bajillion years old proven by carbon-dating seemed to always be something the "church" did not agree with as it was not "biblical". I was always taught otherwise and that it was not that old at all. Well for you Christians out there that do not believe that the world is in fact that old, you sort of need to open your mind a little. The Bible does not say exactly how old the earth is. It does not say how long Adam was in the garden. Therefore, we already cannot tell how old it is. Next, think about how God created Adam, how He created the animals, how He created everything. Did He create the chicken or the egg first? If you think about it, God didn't say "and let there be saplings" instead of trees "and let there be sperm and embryo floating in the air = Adam" instead of adult Adam. He basically created everything "mature". With this in mind, I find it very logical that He created the Earth already "mature", therefore, carbon dating would effectively measure the age of the earth.

Now although I voted 100% creationist on this poll, I do believe in a lot of evolution. [Creationists saying :blink: ] The church has for reasons I do not know taken that "word" and categorized it with the worst of words imaginable. The church tends to categorize it with the extremes, that monkey=man, dinosaurs=birds, mud=bacteria=aquatic invertabrate=land reptile=mammal=man or whatever it is I don't know, and that is evolution. We need to calm down because the first definition of evolution is:

"The change in the genetic material of a population of organisms from one generation to the next."

Now if the church really thought about that then it is point blank obvious and dead apparent that evolution happens all the time and happens everywhere! If evolution is just a change between generations (and then the "changes" that are selected for in the environment and reproduce more, etc) then I am a product of evolution by my parents. We all are, as not a single human life form on this planet has an identical genotype to another (now now, lets not get into cloning threads!) It is obvious we are getting smarter, taller, etc. That is evolution, it is right there in the flesh, it is not unbiblical to believe in evolution. It is unbiblical to believe in things contradictory to God's word and those are not. There is nothing in the Bible that I do not believe in. I believe 100% of it is true, and unlike a lot of Christians these days I spend my time believing the entire thing instead of picking out the things I like.

Evolution also basically means adaption. It is very obvious that organisms adapt whether right away or over a long period of time. Ever since I started keeping Ts in my room and bought a heater to keep the room at a constant 80F, I hardly EVER sweat unless things outside get extremely hot. (Ok so that's not exactly evolution but my point is that the church would probably deny that if it was in fact considered "evolution"). The church needs to remove some of that narrow-mindedness from its often heavily biased teachings and instead of labeling the word "evolution" as the devil, teach what parts of it are obvious and do happen, and teach about what parts to watch out for that are contradictory to the Holy Bible.

Something else I would like people to keep in mind; I find it simply too hard to believe that the Earth happened by chance. I mean when you think about the amazing things out there, how we have a zoo of organisms and cells that live in us to carry out our every day functions. How the sun comes up and the flowers bloom and the rains come and the birds fly and how each animal is unique in its own way. How some animals defend themselves, how some breed, and how some just simply behave. How we have incredible mountains, canyons, oceans, night skies, etc. I don't believe that it came out of mud or crashing meteors or a big anomatopoeia. That's like saying a beatiful painting drew itself over time. I believe that a God with all of the knowledge there is, with humor, creativity, authority, passion, and skill, He created the Earth as a beautiful place perfect in design, and put us here to enjoy it while we can because of His love for us.

By looking at the incredible diversity and immaculate complexity of our natural world, which belief would require more faith: beating the odds against a number unimaginable, that everything evolved from nothing and formed the earth by CHANCE alone, or, was it all simply composed by a very creative and almighty God who knew exactly what He was doing?

Regardless, I like to know I was created by a loving God who cares about me above all things, that I have a purpose here, and am given a promise. Therefore, believing I came from a pile of dirt is simply unmatched...

I could really go on forever, and ever, and as I read my Bible and pray I could go on + another forever. But I won't. Thanks for reading this far guys :) That's really all I would like to say and would prefer not to get attacked on anything as that is when the playing with fire ignites. We all have our own stubborn beliefs and as Peter said, life is full of mysteries and one day some day they will be solved.

~Cody

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Hi Cody

Your statement is quite good reading (from an literary point of view) :) !

The dinosaur stuff is in good parts really a lot of believing and speculation. How could one "extrapolate" the skin color from a bundle of rotten bones (OK, Temperance Brennan could... *hihi*)? Me as a scientist can't really trust in this guys...

BUT your point with the missing link is quite logic in an evolutionary sense: Evolution is genetical adaptation leading to a state (e.g. lifeform) of maximum perfection in a given environment which remains quite unchanged as long as there is no need for further improvement. There were little alterations in climate for long periodes followed by quite sudden changes (typical for equilibria getting out of balance) and therefore the era of dinosaurs was long and the likelihood that some bones were pertrifyed was big. Compared to the number of dinosaus ever lived (as we guess) the number of excavated skeletons is remote. It doesn't astonish therefore that during the times of sudden changes and forced evolution (evolution can be VERY fast if necessary) only few bones could have been preserved and weren't obviously found up to date. Finding a lot of such links wouldn't match with what we supposed the past eras were.

Well, one could state that the reason why there were always non to little findings for changes is that a good put his finger on earth to stop the world as it was and start something new... For thing which can only be "proven" by logics and not by hard facts there is always a possiblity to bring in a good and prove it with the bible. The same hand-waving by both parties...

You believe in the bible (or that what is written in there is/was true) and accept science (as far as it can be trusted :D ): Good premise for a deeper discussion!

- What do you mean about the fact that other cultures (with written tradition) existed well bevore Christianity (or better Judaism) and believe in a different "making of the universe"? Why should "we" be true and not the "heathens"?

- The bible as THE book of god seems to me quite wrong... The bible once was an evolving process and in deed living (Christ if he ever did exist ;) ) when it became (unfortunately) a dogma and now consists of a collection of scripts being approved by the pope/Vatican excluding other existing documents (maybe or most likely different scriptures have been destroyed and/ore removed from public access). How can one believe in such a "subjective assortment" being often mistranslated and influenced by politics? Well, the core statements are ok as an all-day guideline built on the knowledge of those days for a person living (depending on the Testament) between 1000 B.C. and 1000 A.D. and still gives some advices how to behave as a good human being (except that there seems to be no part about car racing on highways :D ). It's not a bad book after all but in my opinion it is quite out of date and urgently needs updating.

- It is known nowadays that especially during medieval times clergy changed quite a few parts in the bible and other documents and this changes are often still approved whilst newer evidences (e.g. other scripts) or more adequate translations are rejected. Maybe a few thousand years ago there was a Word of God but it was handed down by word of mouth (and it's a fact how easy a simple sentence is falsified by doing so -> we played a "whisper" game at school to show that :D ) and believing in exact wording would be most likely fallacious. What is your reason why this shouldn't be the case for the bible? How do you exclude the fallibility of monks, the thirst for power of clergyman or the like?

For me there is a huge difference between the bible(-s) (the 2 Testaments), believing in god, (Christian) religion, the Church and THE beginning and I can't see how to more or less rationally accommodate all this things at the common state of knowledge...

But in contrast I can easily imagine that we evolved from primitive organisms and it seems quite likely that when a living form starts its existence it ultimately will lead to higher and more sophisticated organisms when given enough time. My imaginations stops at the point of how the frist primitive organism should have formed from a primordial soup (the soup itself might be realistic and can to some extent be "proven"). We nowadays know much about molecular and sub-/cellular processes but it's still only a drop in the ocean and to me it looks like we do understand less and less the more we know. That's at least true for me cause from my increasing knowledge I can decreasingly see how a messy broth of random organic matter should be able to organize itself by coincidence into a proliferating organism. But still it doesn't shifts me in a position where I'd need a god.

Best regards

Andreas

P.S. I think that a few sentences are a literary disaster. Sorry for that!

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I understood it completely :) The only thing is that this thread was based on the origin of life; not the origin of Christianity, what parts of the Bible were translated correctly, which parts need to be updated, etc. That I could also talk about all day but I don't want this going off topic and getting too deep (especially on a roach forum!). Plus, a lot of it is backed up by emotion, figurative language, and so on, and I am not the best at putting it all into effective rhetoric (I just graduated high school so give me a little while :P )

All I can really say is, in order for Christianity to work one must have FAITH.

Faith that God "spoke" to the right people that wrote both the new and old testaments of the Bible.

Faith that one can be wise enough to choose the most accurate translation (and trust me it's not any of the "newest" ones).

Faith that an all-powerful God would not have the ONLY written documentation of His existence and code become tainted by the sins of mankind, or otherwise Christianity would be nothing and for the last several hundred years there would be no hope with a biased, corrupted, inaccurate Bible.

Faith that although Christianity was not set in stone at the beginning of time, God was, when He created the garden, when He later came in the flesh, etc., just so that the prerequisites of the Holy Bible could be founded.

Faith that there is a God and although the Bible is His word the most important thing is that personal relationship with Him. Church, performing "good deeds", and the Bible are all only important aids in that relationship and its health. Those are the "religious" parts that are not exactly required (but are important for spiritual growth).

Hmm I'm leaving some faith out but I know there is a lot more :)

God made one thing extremely clear in His word that is consistant through many translations (besides the 10 commandments and other "obvious" qualities percieved by society as 'good') and that is that there is one way to get into heaven and it is to believe in His son and what He did, aknowledge one's sins and to be forgiven, trust Him, and let Him take control of one's life. That's the faith that matters most.

Religion and logic do not mix (miracles?). In some areas science and religion don't work either (creation vs evolution!). Again, it is faith. Faith is the fuel of Christianity, and really all religions. One cannot base it on scientific fact (and although some things in the Bible have yet to be "proven", has there been a single thing in the Bible and it's oldest, most original translations that have been proven completely wrong?) The Bible may not have the answers one needs (it should) but God definitely does. Keep in mind we are all given the exact same oppurtunity.

Ok now look what you made me do?! :) I think I will just end this with; either way, IMO, there is nothing like the feeling of somebody always being with me no matter the circumstance, and nothing like the feeling of knowing that when I die, wrot and decay will not be my heaven. Oh and to keep this a bit on track, the feeling of knowing I was CREATED with a purpose (and that purpose is not fertilizer! :) ) Obstacles, misfortunes, and life itself go by soooo much more smoothly with those kinds of feelings and faith. Still, no matter what one believes, there are always questions to be asked and answered.

By the way, my e-mail address is available and we do have private messaging ;)

Thanks for your input! Best regards,

~Cody

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Upon death, I wish to be set naked in the desert and covered with honey. Any volunteers?

My final gift to bugs!

(and DO bugs go to Heaven? I suppose Hell is full of bugs, eh? ;) hmmmm, I don't suppose this is a dilemma for most people. Sorry if I offend...it's probably just my evolved sense of humor.)

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One problem, Peter. Your bones would remain bleached out on the sandy soil. Should those be buried or incinerated? It would be done unceremoniously and put to a garden for the soil dwellers either way... ;)

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Why the desert, and not the rainforest? :P

As to Peter's question about bugs in the afterlife, the Bible has a few passages that indicate that animals will be found in heaven. I think bugs would be included too. Maggoty-type things that burrow into living flesh could be a torture device in Hell, but who knows?

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Matt: I'm not at all concerned about the remains...of my earthly remains as long as arthropods get first dibs. Perhaps I'll later change my request to be buried in a coffin with several thousand native roaches. Of course, exit tubes of some kind for them to escape would be included.

Ralph: I just like the desert. I've never been to a rainforest, but as long as I still draw breath I reserve the right to change my mind ;) Still, there is something extra attractive to me about laying down a feast in an apparently barren wastland.

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It's hard to 'argue' someone into believing in the truth of Jesus since many have eyes and cannot see, ears and cannot hear. I don't think belief in the creator of the universe requires much faith (even as tiny as a mustard seed is sufficient). There are numerous stories and people in the bible that were thought to be just myth that later were found to be scientific fact as discoveries were made but those who don't want to see or hear cannot be convinced even if you lovingly pick apart their arguments.

I've never been to a rainforest, but as long as I still draw breath I reserve the right to change my mind ;) Still, there is something extra attractive to me about laying down a feast in an apparently barren wastland.

They didn't have any rainforests in Costa Rica or Hawaii?

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