nik2 Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 It Gromphadorhina portentosa ' black ' or Gromphadorhina grandidieri ' black '? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BugmanPrice Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 I would think G. grandidieri because of the notched pronotum and the wide angle of the "horns". Hopefully someone more knowlegable than I will cache in their idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nik2 Posted March 6, 2009 Author Share Posted March 6, 2009 I too think that it G. grandidieri. They were got as G. grandidieri ' black '. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allpet Roaches Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Looks like G.portentosa to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosenKrieger Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Orin, what exactly are the key differences to look for to distinguish between portentosa and grandidieri? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted March 7, 2009 Share Posted March 7, 2009 Posting a picture of him by a ruler would help. G. grandidieri are usually bigger than portentosa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nik2 Posted March 7, 2009 Author Share Posted March 7, 2009 Here G.portentosa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allpet Roaches Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Gromphadorhina portentosa coloration is highly variable, there's no physical character that would differentiate a black G.portentosa from a yellow or orange one and both can be produced by the same female. It would be like saying orange and black goldfish are different species. The real problem is the various Gromphadorhina so far kept in culture (and so-called princisia) all have the same male genitalia and readily interbreed despite some visible differences in the shape of the pronotum and those differences are almost as variable as the coloration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BugmanPrice Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 Gromphadorhina portentosa coloration is highly variable, there's no physical character that would differentiate a black G.portentosa from a yellow or orange one and both can be produced by the same female. It would be like saying orange and black goldfish are different species. The real problem is the various Gromphadorhina so far kept in culture (and so-called princisia) all have the same male genitalia and readily interbreed despite some visible differences in the shape of the pronotum and those differences are almost as variable as the coloration. Orin, just to be clear it was systematic not a taxonomic error? I mean it’s not weather it is G. portentosa or G. grandidieri but the fact that it’s a species complex by your definition (and common species concepts) within G. portentosa…correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allpet Roaches Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 It's both, the specimen pictured is G.portentosa and whoever originally came up with the name likely gave it the wrong name since they didn't think it would sell or trade as readily under the correct name. Additionally, the whole Gromphadorhina genus (plus the "princisia") is messed up since they have the same male genitalia, interbreed readily and were described only using pronotum structure which varies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 If grandidieri and portentosa are the same species, why are the "grandidieri" all so huge? Is it just a big strain that they've been marketing as a different species? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BugmanPrice Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 It's both, the specimen pictured is G.portentosa and whoever originally came up with the name likely gave it the wrong name since they didn't think it would sell or trade as readily under the correct name. Additionally, the whole Gromphadorhina genus (plus the "princisia") is messed up since they have the same male genitalia, interbreed readily and were described only using pronotum structure which varies. Very interesting...you may have given me a project for my Masters! I wonder if Beccaloni is still working on that still? Fun stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nik2 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Yes, it is a lot of mess. But how to understand? All means Portentosa in culture these are hybrids? Pronotum Gromphadorhina portentosa 'black': Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nik2 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Pronotum Gromphadorhina grandidieri 'black'???: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nik2 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Share Posted March 10, 2009 Pronotum Portentosa,Culture №1, Russian: Pronotum Portentosa,Culture №1, German: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt K Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 That last specimen is nice looking- As Orin said, all Gromphadorhina are completely messed up. There are different varieties but they are still incorrectly described and are still all G. portentosa by definition. I keep all my "varieties" seperate very carefully to preserve these variances until someday they are reclassified together or seperately, somehow. Afterthought: I wonder if they are G.portentosa that are geographically varied by micro-climate? Or do any two varieties share a range in nature? Hmmmmm...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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