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There have been studies in the last few years that indicate an ability of lobsters and crabs to feel pain. I recall reading that they have even been known to die from trauma alone. Of course, crustaceans are only distantly related to cockroaches, but I think this is enough of a cause for reconsideration. There has also been recent studies to suggest that Drosophila melanogaster fruit flies possess the same specialized nerve receptors correlated to pain in humans. Anyway, until conclusive evidence is available, I believe it is best to treat cockroaches as humanely as is feasibly possible. In the case that these animals do have some sense of pain, this toy will put countless individuals through unnecessary torture for little purpose beyond human entertainment.

That's interesting. In my opinion insects are not so different from crustaceans; they're almost terrestrial crustaceans, belonging to the group Pancrustacean. So I would assume that insects may feel pain too.

Anyway those kinds of surgery on roaches don't bother me at all; those roaches are not suffering more than out feeders, which live in overcrowded tubs, often have part of the body chewed by their cohorts. The thing that really matter is, it is just a bad idea to give kids any kind of living thing saying "hey, I've made it a new toy for you." It's not bad for roaches, it's bad for kids. Maybe one of them will before a neuroscience specialist and do all crazy but amazing experiments on animals; but they're kids now, it's not fun at all to let them play with a hurt animal.

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So you feel a roach and a human are equal and deserve equal representation under the law? I understand you feel your personal views are more important than anyone who disagrees with you (since they are wrong and you are right). That's fair. How do you apologize to the countless animals that starve to death because you eat their food and your feeding habits provide for the continued desolation of their habitat through agricultural monoculture? It is important you let us know if you're overweight to prove your gluttony does not also provide for the death of animals beyond what you truly need to; survive.

OK, there are some weird assumptions here that I will try to address.

When you talk about equal representation under law. This is referring to Animal rights ( PETA HSUS). These are folks that believe that having pets is wrong. This is not a joke.

Animal welfare is to have and eat animals but treat them humanely. its a question of quality of life like no dog fighting, no starving you python to death. Death its self is not torture. There is of coarse var. Degrees of feeling with in these groups.

To recap:

Animal rights = humans using animals is bad

Animal welfare = humans using animals is fine, just don't be a dick about it.

I'm 5'4 140lb this is the heaviest I've been. So I am at the high end of "normal"

I am a relatively unhealthy vegetarian who believes in animal welfare. i believe that humans have evolved to eat meat but I have the luxury to chose not to and don't care if others are meat eaters, my wife and children are. My opinions are my own and are know to change when presented with adequate objective evidence and even subjunctive when objective evidence is sparse to none.

Orin you have some strong opinions and passions of your own which have led to your writing numerous articles and books. I wouldn't want it any other way.

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So you feel a roach and a human are equal and deserve equal representation under the law? I understand you feel your personal views are more important than anyone who disagrees with you (since they are wrong and you are right). That's fair. How do you apologize to the countless animals that starve to death because you eat their food and your feeding habits provide for the continued desolation of their habitat through agricultural monoculture? It is important you let us know if you're overweight to prove your gluttony does not also provide for the death of animals beyond what you truly need to survive.

Your return comment to me from Monday seems to have disappeared somehow. Anyway, I firmly believe that the exterminator I talked about had no right to kill the roaches I had in tanks. Destroy someone's pets in their own house? Also you mentioned about seperating truth from fantasy. Some of my love for roaches is from fantasy characters like the Raid bugs. However, it was intensified by reality after those fumigations when I saw hoardes of roaches on their backs all wiggling.
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Your return comment to me from Monday seems to have disappeared somehow.

Go back to the first page and look for post #20 (this thread has 2 pages). It hasn't gone anywhere. It was not addressed to your issue but unfortunately if you live in a rental property there are some risks that are the renter's responsibility if the lease does not cover less conventional pets. I'm sure they suffered and it is sad but the question is who's legally to blame.
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For me, it's not about the pain question since there hasn't been any solid research showing that they do feel pain, so it's likely that the roach is indeed fine and what is happening to it is in no way abuse.

What bothers me is that if this toy was being used on any other type of creature it would be causing pain. Younger children (heck, many teens) may not be able to make that distinction without having an adult supervisor to teach them the why behind cockroaches being alright with this kind of treatment, while other animals like fish or reptiles would not be. And there are also going to be the disturbed children who will get kicks and get ideas from doing this as well. I think of it as being a lot like a bark collar - great training tool in the hands of a mature owner who understands how and why it should be used and who won't abuse that power. But would you really hand over the controls of a bark collar to a random 13 year old boy who was then left alone with that dog that he has never met before and didn't care a bit about? With this being sold to the public with no restrictions, you can be sure that is exactly what is going to happen when kids hear about this and beg their parents for one for Christmas. Even the timing of the release is like a new gaming system! And then it's controlled via a smartphone. Nothing about this product says education to me - it all screams "hot new holiday toy".

And for curiosity's sake - does anyone know why the company switched from using hissing roaches? I remember seeing this a few years back in the news, and they started off with ye ole basic hissers that can be found as pets at many shops. Found it interesting that they're now using a much harder to find species (it really is in most areas of the country) that they're selling for $12 per adult on their site...

They probably switched from the hisser to the other roach because you could get a hisser for a few dollars online or at a pet shop, while it is not as easy to find the other species. If you were someone who did not know about the many different kinds of roaches or where to get them, you would think that you had to get that specific roach from them (the company). That way they could get more money. It could have had something to do with the hisser being more "armored" than say a Blaberus discoidalis too.

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They probably switched from the hisser to the other roach because you could get a hisser for a few dollars online or at a pet shop, while it is not as easy to find the other species. If you were someone who did not know about the many different kinds of roaches or where to get them, you would think that you had to get that specific roach from them (the company). That way they could get more money. It could have had something to do with the hisser being more "armored" than say a Blaberus discoidalis too.

As you said, the "armored" pronotum would probably prove more difficult to pierce without shattering it or injuring the hissing roach. Also, Blaberus discoidalis is actually very commonly bred and used for scientific experiments of this nature, as well as experiments regarding the way in which a roach moves so quickly, as they're reported by some to be the fastest animal on the planet in proportion to their body size. They use this information to build robots. There are documentaries of this on YouTube and I encourage anyone interested in roaches to watch them. Here's a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwvG69ICnps

It's best not to assume that fewer captive specimens exist just because they're less common in the hobby; labs and farms breed these guys in large numbers.

B. discoidalis is also the only (there may be more-I am unsure) legal roach species in Florida and perhaps other states. I'm not sure.

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Florida and Tennessee are the only states that i know of that you can't ship to. It was my understanding that floridians were able to keep any species from Florida or that had naturalized there. Mostly there just aren't laws most places. In arizona much of the animal laws define animals as vertebrates, there for not applying to roaches. I've researched this a bit but I am no expert on the subject. Anyone know differently?

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I think it's pretty interesting. I love roaches, but I don't mind a few undergoing this procedure to teach future nerds. As long as it's not wothout reason. Plus it's way too complicated, and too much work for a psychopath who just wants to be mean to something.

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It's best not to assume that fewer captive specimens exist just because they're less common in the hobby; labs and farms breed these guys in large numbers.

Definitely! But an average science teacher trying to pick one or two up locally is going to have a hard time sourcing them. For instance, in our area there's only one store I knew of within an hour and half of me that had pet roaches, and even then it was only one species of hisser. You can't find feeders for sale period. (That is changing here at least - the newest local pet shop owner has as much of a thing for creepy crawlies as I do, so I keep bringing her new species as she has room for them. :) )

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Definitely! But an average science teacher trying to pick one or two up locally is going to have a hard time sourcing them. For instance, in our area there's only one store I knew of within an hour and half of me that had pet roaches, and even then it was only one species of hisser. You can't find feeders for sale period. (That is changing here at least - the newest local pet shop owner has as much of a thing for creepy crawlies as I do, so I keep bringing her new species as she has room for them. :) )

The roaches are bought from the website that sells the device.

https://backyardbrains.com/products/cockroaches

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  • 1 month later...

Go back to the first page and look for post #20 (this thread has 2 pages). It hasn't gone anywhere. It was not addressed to your issue but unfortunately if you live in a rental property there are some risks that are the renter's responsibility if the lease does not cover less conventional pets. I'm sure they suffered and it is sad but the question is who's legally to blame.

The fire department was to blame at first. They saw the roaches, told the city, and the city ordered my landlord to fumigate. Fortunately, I'm keeping my roach operation top secret now. I've moved to a nearby city where they don't know my history and never saying a word to the landlord, nieghbors or people in the neighborhood. So, HOPEFULLY my roaches are safe from the world now!
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