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Mad About Cichlids

dog food question

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I read somewhere saying that the red dye in dog food used for feeding roaches is bad for amphibians. Also that dog food is too fatty which can cause corneal lipidosis in frogs.

Anyone know of any truth to this? If so what are some alternatives out there? I just started using dry dog food and my roaches seem to be doing a lot better. But would stop if it's going to do any harm to my frogs.

Thanks

here's a quick article someone posted

Cholesterol, corneal lipidosis, and xanthomatosis in amphibians.

Kevin Wright, DVM

Vet Clin Exot Anim 6 (2003) 155-167

Page 159-160

"Crickets are often raised on commercially produced dog kibble that has significantly higher levels of cholesterol then the diets crickets would consume in the wild."

Then they explain a test done with Cuban Tree frogs, one group fed high cholesterol, one group fed domestic Crickets, and a wild group

..."captive frogs offered a high cholesterol diet .... developed higher serum cholesterol then either the wild frogs or captive frogs fed domestic crickets. Futhermore, VLDL, LDL, and HDL cholesterol, as well as cholesterol-phospholipid ratio, were mildy to markedly elevated in the captive frogs compared to the wild frogs. It is likley that most captive amphibians consume more cholesterol then they would in the wild. Corneal lipidosis and xanthomatosis, which have been linked to high cholesterol diet and hypercholesterolemia in other species, may result from errors in lipid transport and storage as a result of this high-cholesterol diet"

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I've also heard that the extra vitamin A in dog food can cause problems for certain herps. I wonder how much is really true and how much is unsubstantiated internet hype since reptile breeders have used roaches fed on dog food for at least 25 years without reporting issues. I reared a number of baby veiled and panther chameleons on crickets fed and loaded with dog food over the years and they all did spectacular but now if a baby looks a little sick I can blame the dog food. Maybe it's just the rare unhealthy animal or grasping at straws. If you're worried you could try a brown cat food instead.

You may find a board that says you have to throw the cat food over your shoulder first and count to three before turning around to make it acceptable, I guess it couldn't hurt? :unsure:

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lol

Orin's pullin' out the /sarcasm/.

Sorry, it wasn't meant to be sarcastic, but illustrative. It's easy enough to switch to brown cat food (to avoid vitamin A and colorful dyes that might be absorbed from the prey's gut content) but at what point is it foolish to put energy into avoiding unknown and difficult to prove risks.

As to the article:

I was under the impression that all the commercial cricket breeders use chicken meal because of it's cheap price, rather than dog food.

It is likely that captive amphibians have higher cholestrol and fat content than wild caught if only because of a sedentary life.

Is it the good cholesterol or the bad cholesterol?

Wild animals often have minimal fat reserves which is one thing that makes wild-caught more likely to die.

Lastly, results of an actual study are likely to vary widely with each species since not all species have the same dietary requirements.

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Orin is being sarcastic, sort of, which makes it FUNNY !!! I like it....

Orin does raise some good points to consider, and I want to add one: propylene glycol.

There are a number of animals which react to propylene glycol, a common ingredient in human food and several mammal feeds. But for example: You can feed something with a tiny amount of propylene glycol in it to any toucan and the toucan will die. You have to then wonder how many other animals on Earth can't handle it either. Now I have inadvertantly fed foods to roaches with this ingredient and not had any issue I know of. I have not had the opportunity though to feed my roaches to amphibians with roaches full of feed containing this ingredient. Good experiment.....

Propylene glycol is considered by some to be a suspicious ingredient, like saccarin, carmel coloring, and the like in diseases of the liver and pancreas... but I don't know of any publication or any facts related to this.

But then again there are people who think red meat will kill you and my 74 year old father in law has only eaten red meat, potatoes and corn his whole life.....

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I've fed my roaches, who usually get dog food, to leopard and clawed frogs without any apparent ill effects.

BTW, how can we be sure that roaches can't break down this supposed "chemical killer" into healthier or beneficial compounds? Don't they get that bacteria or whatever it is from their parents that allows them to take most things with a carbon atom and break them into the "edible goodies?"

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I've fed my roaches, who usually get dog food, to leopard and clawed frogs without any apparent ill effects.

Just curious but clawed frogs are aquatic so how would a cockroach (found on land) be good to feed as part of a fully aquatic frogs diet? They would never eat a cockroach in the wild, and they cant chew their food so arent they at risk for choking?

Earthworms or bloodworms and tiny fish are good because they can safely be swallowed whole and are part of their natural diet. But fish are sketchy because ones in stores are usually full of diseases or parasites.

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AND fish can sometimes contain thiamin, which is bad for herps, especially snakes.

As for feeding roaches to them, the clawed frogs are also known for eating mollusks and arthropods found in their aquatic environment, and from what the company Xenopus I tells me it's good for their digestive tract.

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As for feeding roaches to them, the clawed frogs are also known for eating mollusks and arthropods found in their aquatic environment, and from what the company Xenopus I tells me it's good for their digestive tract.

I did hear they will swallow small aquatic snails whole and any tiny shrimp, I just thought it could choke on a large roach because of the spines on the legs and body. Well thats interesting to know!

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AND fish can sometimes contain thiamin, which is bad for herps, especially snakes.

As for feeding roaches to them, the clawed frogs are also known for eating mollusks and arthropods found in their aquatic environment, and from what the company Xenopus I tells me it's good for their digestive tract.

Hi!

Thiamin are known as vitamin B1 and is essential for most living animals.

You must be thinking of the term, thiaminase, which destroyes thiamin.

Thiamin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiamin

http://www.anyvitamins.com/vitamin-b1-thiamin-info.htm

http://www.anapsid.org/thiamine.html

Thiaminase:

http://www.austinsturtlepage.com/Articles/Thiaminase.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiaminase

Have a nice weekend!

Best wishes

Fredrik

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As for feeding roaches to them, the clawed frogs are also known for eating mollusks and arthropods found in their aquatic environment, and from what the company Xenopus I tells me it's good for their digestive tract.

I did hear they will swallow small aquatic snails whole and any tiny shrimp, I just thought it could choke on a large roach because of the spines on the legs and body. Well thats interesting to know!

Well, I'll NEVER feed a whole sized hisser or etc. That could do some damage, but 1-5 instars are fine.

I DID have a frog who could probably handle a full size hisser though once.

hugexenbm9.jpg

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